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Posted by calostemma on 29-Jan-2011 18:10 Report
telling the difference
To all you gem sellers.
How does one know if a gem is the real thing ?
Say angelskin coral versus   a clever fake.
Is there any easy test for the novice to use?
 
Replied by hobals on 29-Jan-2011 18:41 (Ref 2263387) Report
Hi
Buy from a reputable seller

Not one who has fake gold in the " Fine Jewellery " category

If you want the real McCoy- then buy from someone you feel you can trust
check their Feedback ratio against items sold

check what they have listed and WHERE

If something has 12grams & says it's gold and is selling for $50
it is NOT  GOLD - Not REAL GOLD

Which is why the Tags are so important - with the BASE METAL

ask the seller a question- is this gem real or a "copy" 
ask via the OZtion system- so it is on record

If someone actually answers something is real and isn't a fake and they do sell a fake- online- this is a FEDERAL OFFENCE
and is not some "slap on the wrist" they can actually go to jail

so- buy and ask from a seller who has decent feedback
has a good ratio of feedback
who answers your question

( if they don't reply- assume it's fake and report them )

I have always found- the ones who sell fakes- never answer when I ask flat out :
" is this real or a copy " and I don't get a reply
Then- I report them to admin - "suspected Fake Item / Counterfiet "
which is on EVERY listing- the ability to report a sellers items

Cheers :-)
Replied by j7339 on 29-Jan-2011 19:18 (Ref 2263401) Report
My sell through rate here so far wouldn't be a way to judge - as I have heaps listed - but have yet to sell any gold items on Oztion.

I use the tags to signify if it is a created stone - plated etc - or the real thing - usually the price is a good judge - as gold is over $1300 US an ounce at present.

The pieces I have sold that are real gold - have been decent amounts of money involved.

Jules
Replied by issabella10 on 29-Jan-2011 19:58 (Ref 2263421) Report
"Is there any easy test for the novice to use?"

Yep , don't buy it online .

Pale Pink Coral is far to hard to identify as genuine through online photo's , best to stick to reputable jewellers or sellers who have a proven record. Even then it's never a guarantee of the real thing.

I am still looking for a genuine piece of Maw Sit Sit , been offered anything from fake Maw Sit Sit to look alike stones from people who think they can con you .
Replied by carbonprincess on 30-Jan-2011 11:58 (Ref 2263668) Report
 Short answer Calo - always assume something is a fake. 

'Angel skin'  coral should be a soft pink with whitish or light reddish spots. However that is not all they should be and without a microscope or high powered loupe, it is easy to be misled.

Apart from all that - tsk, tsk what are you doing looking at coral!!! Most of it is protected. 

*tweaks tie and removes stern face 
Replied by calostemma on 30-Jan-2011 13:39 (Ref 2263719) Report
Hi  waves to carbonprincess
Saw it advertised elsewhere checked out googlel
Judjing from the price asked I would say it was fake.
Have bought coloured coral from manutepearls                  Just like the colours
have not seen any rocks in those colours                               yet
Replied by manuteapearls on 30-Jan-2011 15:22 (Ref 2263754) Report
Ooh! I got a bit worried when I saw this! I was wondering if you thought my coral was fake. I am so glad you are not talking about your necklace!

Princess is quite right that one can never be sure about what one is buying from suppliers... I am not a gemmologist, though I have seen your coral used before (have some myself I bought years ago), so I must rely on what the supplier tells me and comparison when the goods arrive.

I do buy exclusively from suppliers that have been recommended to me, though, by 'people in the know', so I can only rely on the suppliers' reputation and hope that they don't pull a fast one! But I do believe that I get what I am told I am getting. If I ever find out different, there will be Hell to Pay, believe me!!

Your coral was put under a welding flame to test it before I used it! It is definitely coral.

I wish there was more coral available! I love it and it is the perfect sea-creation to put with the pearls. But as Princess says, most of it is now protected.

I haven't looked at your other job properly yet. I have been rather sick the last couple of weeks. I WILL get back to you soon on it - promise!

Manu  :-)
Replied by carbonprincess on 30-Jan-2011 17:00 (Ref 2263817) Report
*waves back. 

As Jo said, you have to learn to trust your suppliers. This comes from peer referral and getting to know them properly. Random testing doesn't hurt either.

As far as coral goes, (considering they are the external skeletons of all sorts of species) each type has it's own identifying characteristics and often one type can be substituted for another - particularly with the precious corals. So it may be 'coral' but just not the type you were expecting. Dyeing is also very common - this will come off with acetone. Natural coral can fade and is very sensitive to heat and acids (sometimes even something as simple as vinegar - so take care). Coral is not very hard - around 3.5 on the Moh's scale and easy to break, it produces a hackly fracture (another giveaway). 

A test you can do is to put a spot of acid on the coral - it will effervesce. The best indicator is price. Years ago there were genuine bargains on auction sites, but now, if it is really cheap then the odds are there is good reason for this. Angel's Skin is one of the more valuable types of coral, so there are often dyed imitations to be found. Most common imitants are porcelain, glass and plastic. There is also a man made version (Gilson I believe), it is easily dismissed as the real thing as there is none of the 'woodgrain' look you see with genuine coral. 

Someone mentioned Maw Sit Sit. I don't deal in ornamentals, but if I were looking for a reliable supplier (and none of my regulars stocked it) I would contact either the local branch of the GAA (Gemmological Association of Australia) and ask for a recommendation or a lapidary club or (perhaps even better) a registered valuer. Valuers often have the best info on who to buy from - some even sell gems themselves.
Replied by manuteapearls on 30-Jan-2011 21:00 (Ref 2263937) Report
What is 'pressed' coral, Princess?

Manu  :-)
Replied by calostemma on 30-Jan-2011 21:43 (Ref 2263949) Report
hangs head as makes confession
I did buy a similar coloured item from the dark side, a simple necklace and matching bracelet.
It claimed to be coral    bought 25 years ago, and er
it looks identical ,feels identical, not game to do the tests in as i damage it,
and the price  :  do you think its possible i lucked in                 (my version of being lucky)
iT WAS ONLY        auction starting price $25.00 and no-one else bidded
Replied by carbonprincess on 30-Jan-2011 23:09 (Ref 2263973) Report
 Never heard of 'pressed coral' Manu, although I can hazard a guess and say it is (possibly) coral scraps formed into a particular shape. Not sure what adhesive they would use. I know for pressed amber this is achieved by heat and pressure, but don't imagine that - eek, think it is calcium carbonate, would have the same properties as amber. My coral knowledge is limited to what I had to learn to pass exams and all the eco things I have learned about it during my working life (which is interesting, but not technically useful in this case). 

Ask me about diamonds and sparkly rings and I can bore you forever 

Calo, I would go on the principle of 'I like it, therefore I don't care if it is real or not'. What people need to understand is that fakes have been around for a very long time. My grandparents brought back a whole bunch of fascinating stuff from Thailand 45 years ago that had entered the family folklore as being this or that and I took some 'ivory' pieces to college determined to prove they were bone (couldn't bear it if they were actually ivory) - turned out to be pretty carved bits of plastic!!! The faceted 'onyx' was tektike (formed by meteorite collision) and the 'jade' was chrysoprase. Not everything was a dud, there was a lot of stuff!!! Actually it was grandma's treasures that started my passion, so the duds were worth it (to me at least).

Depression era jewellery too is a big source of disappointment. Often (not always of course) Great Grandmas 'ruby' will turn out to be a lovely piece of flint (glass) or synthetic - or maybe natural - spinel. 

My answer to your question is - not outside the realm of possiblity, but not likely. Perhaps it is time for you to invest in a good quality 10x loupe, at least that way you can look at the surface characteristics and perhaps see how uniform it looks. A smooth appearance is a reasonable indicator of imitation - not definite as not always easy to see, but one clue at least. Putting acid on the surface will not damage it if it is genuine - it will just fizz a bit. 

If you like the piece and are happy with the price you paid, then don't worry too much. If however your aim was to get something that was worth a whole bunch more than you paid for, well.......
Replied by calostemma on 01-Feb-2011 22:19 (Ref 2264783) Report
Just checked out spinels on google,
Is this  cheaper than say amethyst and topaz or about the same. I read it comes in larger sizes than most precious stones.
A lot of "genuie"  stones appear to be in a lot of the cheaper fine jewellry ie sterling silver.  Could they poossibly be small offcuts of spinel?
Replied by carbonprincess on 01-Feb-2011 23:17 (Ref 2264800) Report
 Spinel has increased in popularity and price quite a bit over the past few years. It is definitely in a higher price category than Amethyst, which is plentiful, yet (strangely) very often synthesised. I wouldn't say that large gems are a unique feature of this variety, most of the gems you mentioned would probably be cheaper in larger sizes (there would be some Topaz  exceptions) than a good quality Spinel. We did learn that often the gems that look purple (and are sold as such) in their web glory/sales pitch often turn out to be a very unattractive grey. I have learned in my own work that there are some gems that 'give good photo'. 

Spinel (synthetic) is frequently used as there is a great range of colours and it can mimic many things, we saw a lot of it in the lab - Aquamarine and Ruby are some of the big ones to look out for -a favourite substitute.

The Black Prince's Ruby in some Royal family important jewel thingy is actually a (natural) Spinel. Good red Spinel (think traffic light colour) attracts a high price. Stones over a carat are thousands of dollars (per carat). Cobalt blue Spinels are usually small and not cheap and the other colours vary in size and price but in the lower price range of this gem family. Decent greens are hard to come by - they are usually  too dark. 

If you want to compare a few prices, Google gemval - won't post the link, but it is easy  to find. It is a site that gives values for gemstones, some of which you can access without a paid subscription (from memory you have to pay for sapphires and umm, sorry, haven't used it in years). Don't use it as the absolute last word on price, but it helps to work out a price hierarchy. Also remember that you may be giving higher values to the quality of cut and symmetry than a real valuer would, so it's a good idea to go low (it will make sense once you try it).

There is plenty of cheap Spinel around, doesn't mean it is good. There is also a lot of good Spinel around - usually not cheap. Dark Spinel (not expensive - almost black, but not to be confused with true black Spinel) is often found with Sapphires.

Spinel is one of those gems that actually deserves more attention than it gets. It's an 8 on the Moh's scale, so a good jewellery choice and comes in pretty colours. It is relatively clean and can be nice and bright, but - like all gems - that depends entirely on the quality of the cut.

You do like to test my memory  

My apologies if there are any errors, too tired to drag out any books or notes and I try to avoid Google for this sort of stuff as I get flashbacks to my teachers saying 'when it comes to Gemmology - the internet is not your friend' - probably says more about them than the internet, but it is stuck in my head.
Replied by calostemma on 04-Feb-2011 18:07 (Ref 2265708) Report
Dear me,  looks like my genuine ruby necklace might be genuine ruby spinel
I only paid costume price for it.  All the beads are hand knotted with a matching red thread, so its quality costume.
Replied by carbonprincess on 04-Feb-2011 18:58 (Ref 2265739) Report
 Just to clarify - Spinel and Ruby are from totally different families so Ruby Spinel is not an accurate description (she says with a stern gemmological voice ).

Your 'genuine Ruby' could be anything from Ruby, to synthetic Ruby, to Spinel, Synthetic Spinel to glass and all things in between. If it is a real Ruby and it was cheap, it would most likely be very included - unless the seller was totally clueless. 

The only way to tell what is what is to have it tested by someone who knows what they are doing (and has the right equipment). The only way to have it tested accurately and valued fairly is to take it to a registered valuer who actually uses true market value. That is a whole other topic of conversation, but suffice it to say, in the last year, there has been a major crackdown on the way valuers value.

However, as I said before, it really depends on why you are buying something. If you bought it because you like it and it was a price you were prepared to pay, then it really doesn't matter what it is. 

The sort of stuff you buy as an investment is in a whole different realm.

I was very lucky in the early days, I bought a whole lot of stuff -  mainly as test stones for school and some of those turned out to be much better than I expected and a couple of pieces were actually very valuable, odd because one in particular I bought to prove it was a fake (too funny). But that was years ago and it is not something I would do now. Not only because I don't feel like gambling, but also because I only buy gems that directly benefit the community in which they were mined (but that is my platform, don't expect everyone else to feel the same way). However, I do remember the thrill of finding some true bargains. 

The point I am trying to make is - if you buy cheap, don't have any expectations. Now and then it may be an unexpected good buy, but if you believe that the person selling it at such a low price is telling you the truth, then be prepared to be disappointed.
Replied by manuteapearls on 05-Feb-2011 19:32 (Ref 2266047) Report
Just a little comment about real stones being set in Silver...

I am doing this at the moment with my pearls, for two reasons - well, 3 really.

1) It is too expensive for me to work in gold right now, because I can still cock things up.

2) Silver is not nearly as expensive as gold, so the overall piece when finished, even with real stones, can be sold for a lot less, therefore hopefully selling more quickly.

3) It takes a lot of money to buy in gold settings, which ties up your money if the piece doesn't sell very fast. And at the moment, no-one has that much money!

One more point, is that many people are afraid of paying for Real Jewellery On-line (so I have read). As stated before, gold is NOT cheap, but people want something Real, for silly prices. (I am not talking stones etc, just metal). And they are afraid to part with the sort of money that would actually GET them something real.
Catch 22 really.

I had a gold pendant listed on here, with a BIIIIG Tahitian Dove-grey pearl (11-12mm?) and a natural, 0.64 carat, fuschia-pink Ceylon sapphire, (personally bought in Sri Lanka, certified there, and re-certified in Aus by a Proper Gemmologist). The setting was hand-made by a jeweller to my specifications ('cos I don't work in gold yet!) and the stone set, with the pearl being added by me.

I had it up for about $550. THAT was a REAL bargain..... Well, I still have it. What can I say?

I have more unset stones to use. (Some from Our Princess!) But why have stuff made up, if no-one wants to spend the money to buy it?

Manu  :-)
Replied by calostemma on 06-Feb-2011 22:28 (Ref 2266499) Report
Manu  you have
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